It's less of an excuse and more of a plausible explanation as to why White and Doyle have been struggling lately.

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I am also not convinced on PM one way or the other yet. I just think all things considered he deserves at least two more years before i can really say yeah or nay,
63 You may be correct that he should have anticipated the time situation,.my gut tells me he was trying to get some wins. But the bench is really weak. I think he has played King when appropriate but the guys is so skinny and Turk is all shine. If we were playing HoRSE he is your guy but he gives up more points defensively and with turnovers that i am surprised he has gotten as much time as he has.I think he makes such glaring mistakes that he drives PM nuts. maybe you can blame PM for not developing him or maybe he is just hard headed. Dokubo who is easy to like is just not the right guy to run the high pick and roll that we run. PM uses him defensively when he can, I cant explain the Nixon thing but wasnt he also hurt earlier????? Cody Johnson is a mystery to me as well and maybe PM just couldnt be patient enough to take his lumps and let him learn on the job.
When I look at so many of these guys they all have holes or are having to play out of position. I mean who on that bench can come in and provide even close to what Thomas, Doyle, Chrisman and White provide? When we have to sub for them we become a weaker team. I guess you can blame PM for a weak bench but if you put Payne in who could have subbed for White and Crisman and Tanner Williams was there to spell Doyle and if Cody played center while Osbourne spelled Thomas maybe you have a different picture. So wearing them out in my opinion was an attempt to win
I feel like White has improved but not so much Oleary.
So I am going to imagine that it is just wear and tear and they will be well rested by Arch Madness and we will run the table,
GO RAMBLERS

Except to do that they would have to win four games in four days.

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Smokey, I'm just one voice on this site, and others like you might totally disagree with me. I would like to have a discussion about the questions you ask, and I don't pretend to be an expert. I might even be characterized as a loudmouth who has no idea what he's talking about-- it's been said before. Feel free to disagree, this is just my opinion as someone who has watched this program somewhat carefully through five different coaches and three ADs.

I am very disappointed in the way this season is ending. To me, there are a number of skill sets that are necessary for a good coach-- recruiting, personnel/program management (including player development, hiring assistants, scheduling, etc.), in game coaching (x's and o's, game plans, strategy, making adjustments, etc.), charisma (being a good promoter of the program, a good spokesperson for the university, etc.), and ethics (graduating players, observing NCAA rules, etc.). Some coaches have strengths in different areas, and hire assistants who are good at helping in others.

I didn't expect us to finish better than 7th this year, and if we played hard and did all we could, I could have accepted 8th or even 9th with no regrets. I realize that the MVC is a big step up from the Horizon. But we're limping to the conclusion of this season locked in 10th, out of gas, and barely able to put five scholarship players on the floor at the same time.

We're three years into Moser's tenure here. If I gave grades right now, I'd say that so far he's a B+/A- on recruiting, C- on personnel/program management, D+ on in-game coaching, B on charisma, and Incomplete on ethics (I don't know the whole story on Courtney Stanley, Denzel Brito, Chim Kadima, Cully Payne, Nick Osborne's recent problem, why the assistants all left at the same time, etc.).

I don't think the program was in as dire shape as was portrayed when he got here. Running off Courtney Stanley, Denzel Brito, Chim Kadima, Shaun Adams, Jonathan Gac, and Tom Neary from the team may have been warranted in some cases, but I don't think in all. Brito now plays at Loyola Maryland, where he's an honor roll student. Kadima, Adams, and Neary played at Division II St. Leo, who went deep in the D-II tournament. I get the impulse to come in, change culture, and make your mark, but was there no way to keep any of those players, even as backups, and let them just quietly cycle out of the program? Aside from a sense of satisfaction from dramatic house-cleaning, what did it really get us? We've had two 20+ losing seasons in Moser's three years here, and the other season 16 losses. Despite his seemingly good recruiting, we now have multiple walk-ons playing at the same time in the first half of conference games. The non-conference schedule for the past two years has been among the 10% weakest in all of college basketball (look it up). And in conference play while Moser has been at Loyola, we've finished 10th of 10 (setting a record for most conference losses in a single season in the 30+ year history of the MCC/Horizon), 7th of 9, and 10th of 10 (in one of the weakest years in recent MVC history).

I'll grant you that Whitesell was a VERY WEAK recruiter, and had more than ample time to show otherwise. After seven years, we were not making any demonstrable progress toward getting the program to where we wanted it to be. Yet in his seven years at Loyola, weak recruiting, timeout burning, hoarse-voiced, Wisconsin-loving Jim Whitesell had zero 20-loss seasons, never finished last in the conference, and had more difficult non-con schedules than we've had the last two years. Those are just simple facts.

OK, you want to tear down a poorly-designed, cobbled-together house and build something new and strong? Great. But we're three years in, and I think we should have a little something more than piles of rubble, sketchy blueprints, unreliable contractors, and a hole for the foundation.

Smokey-Dokey !! I do believe you deep down are making a defense of Moser--Good for you ! BUT--

He recruited three and a half bigs ( the half--Christian has proven himself) The other three --well to put it kindly have not--Two--King and Cody have been given little chance--The othe , Osborne was coming along nicely--and then the explosion --over what ?/ Something in the open which was not up to the punishment rendered (My opinion)--so there must be something else here.

My own feeling is , PM is a guard coach--not a "Big" coach--That's OK if he has an asst who is--Does he ??

Injuries ?? All teams get them so it says here--BUT we seem, each year to get more than the quota--You think ??

People here are expressing dissatisfaction with PM--including me--not outright condemnation--but I am reading between the lines--

Turk, King Cody ?? Why did he recruit them ?? His job is to see who has talent and IS coachable. Turk to me has a blown mind--He cannot now even hit the rim---WHY ??


Now then, my feeling is--this team is done for this year--we cannot reach 10 Di -1 wins---Sad ! Really sad. He has lost the team--or gthey have lost him--take your pick.

IK truly hope I am wrong --especially for the players' sakes.

I am not trying to put lipstick on a pig here.....but
63
1. have any of those players who left (were run off) proven to be DI players???? Brito is averaging 3.7 points a game for a team that is comparable to ours. Would our bench be stronger...that would be a yes. But the guess is that the guys that left did not want to stay and be bench players. Gac plays for Western Florida and is not a starter as a Sr, and St.Leo is Division II, are we comparing that to the MVC? They lost 87-61 to Elizabeth City St,. that puts a 14 pt loss to the the 3rd best team in the Valley on the road in perspective. Those guys were DII players and PM knew it. That first year he had Averkamp and Gibler and Hicks and nothing else.

2. I think he is a good X and Os coach. I take the ISU home game as an example. they plunked us with a zone press and zone at ISU, We were prepared for it at LU. We came out of the box getting great shots. Defensively they were handling the guard penetration in the first half.

Brot,
1. I think I am a PM guy. I want my coaches to be good guys and I think he is,
2. Even though recruiting has had a few plusses overall I do not think he has gotten the guys he really has wanted and two of them left ( the Payne boys) and two of them are hurt.
3. Cody Johnson is the only true center . Osbourn is a power forward,Oleary is a power forward or swing guy. King is skinnier than a bookmark and I believe had no other DI offers. If Averkamp was on this years team ,,,,Holy Crap.There are personnel issues on this team plus the lack of experience. So if anything PM is guilty of it is not having recruited effectively. In the end this will decide his fate. I think all the other factors that 63 brings up PM has.

And his assistants left for better jobs correct? maybe not Malnatti going to Fenwick but maybe that is what he wants,
Also who are you going to bring in to do better. Both UIC and NIU brought in assistants from two great programs(UW and MSU) and have what I would consider better circumstances or no worse than comparable and have fared no better and for the most part worse,.Although NIU has a win over us and a couple more wins this year,
I would also like to point out that we are starting to get players from the Chicago Public League!!! which we screamed about for years.
However if we are at the same point next year under similar circumstances I will buy beers for everyone,
GO RAMBLERS

I am with you on this one Rambler63. IMO, three years is enough time to at least show a modicum of improvement. I don't believe we have.

People keep championing Porter's recruiting prowess. But, other than Milton Doyle who kind of just fell into our lap, are we really that much better off? Is Jeff White really that much better than Courtney Stanley? Is Christian Thomas/Osbourne that much better than Averkamp/Gibler/Polka? Is Crisman/Turk really better than Geoff McCammon/Jordan Hicks? Etc., etc. Nothing has shown me that these players are much better than the ones Whitesell recruited.

Yes Smokey, I was thinking about the bench, not starting players. It's been a problem three years running, and I think having such a short-handed bench has lost us a lot of games-- I'd estimate 5-7 games over the past three years, maybe more.

You made a good point about the ISU home game. I also thought some of the game plans were pretty good, including in some of the games we lost but played close (Indiana State, at Evansville), but that's something I feel I have little knowledge or expertise about. I think the technical foul assessed to PM in the game at SIU that we lost in overtime was a negative mark on that ledger.

2011, I'm also thinking of some of the players we have coming in next year, especially Donte Ingram, who promises to be really good. However, a case could be made that his signing was partly due to the fact that he's a cousin of a former Loyola player.

Your second quote helps make the case for the first quote...